My Sanga Idea

Comments (22)

1. 

   skdas

   Really this seva-team idea needs clarification.

   My understanding is that all the seva teams are aimed at pleasing Srila Gurudeva.

   This is my proposal. The idea is to promote autonomy and individual responsibility by removing power from the legal entity and placing it in the hands of the devotees who are working to achieve Srila Gurudeva's desires.

   SEVA TEAMS

   If someone is inspired to achieve something for Srila Gurudeva's pleasure, and acts accordingly, then that is a seva team. If more than one devotee is inspired, all the better. The devotees in each seva team are responsible for their own management.

   No seva team is superior to or in charge of any other. This is particularly true with regards to the Incorporated Assocation seva team (in Australia, or overseas equivalent), which simply has the responsibility to fulfill legal requirements for Government registration and assist other seva teams and that's all. To this end all property & assets should be held in trust separately from the legal entity for the benefit of the sanga generally.

   Who is in charge of the sanga and facilitator of sadhu-sanga and arbiter of any disputes is the seniormost devotee. This should be agreed upon at a special sanga festival each year.

   Annual General Meetings and General Meetings and so on for an Incorporated Association (here in Australia) are required by law, but should be held on a holy day (but not a fasting day) and re-framed according to our culture as follows:

   i) as a legal requirement that must be fulfilled by the Incorporated Association seva team, and

   ii) as part of a general seva team meeting for all seva teams to discuss progress etc.

   ii) as an opportunity for a good prasadam feast.

   Seva teams allow devotees to just ‘get on with it’, because every member of a seva team is there because they want to achieve the same desire f Srila Gurudeva, whether it be a school, a temple building, book distribution, a festival, preachers visits, etc.

   Given the small scale of our sanga, perhaps a formal seva team system is a little inappropriate, but at least a framework should be there clearly understood.

   The main area of confusion about seva teams is in relation to the formal requirements of the law, and its relation to previous ways of management that many devotees are accustomed to and cynical of.

   Seva teams help devotees to discard unsuitable administrative systems (that in the past have been oppressive), and help to provide the opportunity to take full personal responsibility to accomplish things for Srila Gurudeva's pleasure without the 'oversight' of the dreaded "sanga managers" syndrome.

   Facilities or Festivals or projects need management, but sangas do not.

   Sangas only need sadhu-sanga, sravan, kirtan, smaranam, etc.

   Seva teams is our own way of organisation.

   Ideally every member of each sanga would be contributing in a seva team, but realistically that may take a while to happen. In the meantime, there should be no criticism, only kindness.

   2 years ago

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2. 

   mathuranatha das

   yes , somehow or other we have developed a mood in our sanga of procrastination in respect to the projects Srila Gurudeva repeatedly requests [orders].Perhaps because it seems to hard to cooperate and work with devotees things get postponed to the indefinite future .We need to develop the mood we CAN fulfil Srila Gurudevas desires and we can do it starting right now.

   2 years ago

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3. 

   rags108

   Thanks & dandavats Subal Krsna prabhu, this is exactly the kind of dialogue is was hoping would take place on this forum.

   Now, I think you are spot on with regards to ST and management. This "procrastinating" culture, i.m.h.o. is more the outcome of a lack of leadership, coaching and support systems with the society. Devotees become discouraged and yet another great idea is put on the shelf never to be executed. At best we'll talk about it at our next "meeting" at some festival, this way we move from Karttika to Gaurpurnima and around.

   Some ST's may need to seek permission and maybe even funding, so for that it is important to spell out the process and criteria for receiving such funding, while other teams may only need some coaching and tools for executing their ideas. It is my prayer that this forum is a step towards that end, since SevaTeams.com is under performing and I have some thoughts as to why it is.

   Also, the idea has been posited that a "constitution" should be formed for our society.... "We the people.....," etc.

   That is a whole other topic; I might have to post it here as a new idea. I am in discussion with Brajanath prabhu who is about to issue a proposal shortly.

   Please let me have your thoughts, and maybe some practical steps to putting a system in place that could work and meet the spiritual as well as practical/managerial needs of our members.

   Yrs, Raghava Pandit das

   2 years ago

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4. 

   skdas

   Dandavats Raghava Pandit prabhu and thank you for your encouragement.

   To start with a cost/benefit view, we will be on the right track by making sure that the benefits of being more organised outweigh the costs - and continue to do so for the longest time possible.

   That means first of all to have clear and 100% pure bhakti goals that are easily understood by all and will benefit all involved. These are Srila Gurudeva's desires.

   To make sure that those goals are kept 100% in the centre we will have to learn how to recognise and reward only goal-focused activities and not anything else.

   "Pay due respects to the extroverts of the world, but do not be appreciative of their manners and conduct. They are to be shaken off from your mind." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur Prabhupada.

   That again would mean that our sanga will have to have clear, pure and universal goals.

   So, we require further education as to what all the goals and standards are, conclusively, in every area:

   Deity worship

   Ashram

   Etiquette

   Prasad Seva

   etc.

   so that:

   1) We can know what standards of behaviour we are aspiring to, and

   2) we can recognise and appreciate those whose behaviour is exemplary.

   That education can be done through books and so on, or by personal association with learned and cultured persons.

   In a loving endeavour to seek Gurudeva's blessings there can be no shaming or criticism of others.

   But in our world, we will have to be careful to avoid that - by being self-directed and keeping a focus on the positive principles, and remembering to deal with others according to the directions of Srila Rupa Goswami and our Srila Gurudeva. it's not really that difficult and it is very sweet.

   Lastly,

   In the 1966 lectures of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada he often would say things like, "IF you take to this process, and IF you take it seriously, THEN you will be happy. Thank you very much".

   So that urgency to make practical tangible advancement somehow has to be brought back into our culture.

   We will not "cruise" back to Godhead, of that there's no doubt.

   First we need to know our goal.

   2 years ago

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5. 

   skdas

   We have such a wealth of experience in this sanga - if only we can use it going forward!

   2 years ago

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6. 

   mathuranatha das

   Ragava Prabhu ,yes a constitution is lacking and a Upadesavali [like SriSrimad Bhaktisiddanta Sarisvati Prabupadas and Sri Srima Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Goswamis in the back of the song book].

   And an official policy of what the society will try and do for the devotees who belong to it [and do for Gurudeva}.Like the real basics which are sentential but difficult or impossible for individuals to do on their own .

   For example in any location where there are a dozen or more initiated devotees the society will undertake to organise on a daily basis mangalartic , a reading of shastra and evening artic/namakirtan for all those who understand the necessity of attending.Also make Srila Gurudevas books available locally for devotees to distribute . Also organise Harinam Sankirtan and preaching/outreach programs.

   In other words we have to really clearly define what the society is for.Then the structure and mechanics can be developed with that in mind.

   Radhe Radhe !!

   2 years ago

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7. 

   rags108

   Dandavats prabhus. Thank you so much for part taking in this forum. You seem the most active and I applaud you for being so.

   Apologies for the delay in my reply to you. It has been watershed since we launched the forum and we're now thinking hard about the next phase of this project to start distilling and condensing to review and prepare for execution.

   Subal ji, you have raised some very interesting points and what I am sensing is a strong need for "coaching" or training; to communicate the ideas you outlined in a structured way so that they make sense and are "easily" absorbed and assimilated by those who seek to move forward in the way you describe.

   During the Italy festival a Seva Team was formed to help create such a coaching platform in order to serve devotees in the different areas you have listed, but also in areas of Management, Life Skills, and other practical topics, that may or may not appear to be the activities of "Pure Bhakti" such as sravanam, kirtanam. If someone wanted to take on the role of a Temple Manager because that person is driven and inspired to serve Gurudeva's mission in whatever way possible, but he has no experience or skills, although being a natural "leader type", a little training may be a long way.

   So what this Seva Team has set out to do is enter into a phase of “Discovery” and “Requirements Gathering” as you do in any sound project management.

   Now I see both of you (Mathuranath ji included) very active and inspired to share ideas and comment back and forth.

   I am personally very inspired by this and become even more so to help provide infrastructure to help move our ideas forward from merely dream state to actual tangible results for Krishna’s pleasure.

   Please let me know if and how you would see your role in this, if facilitated with the required tools and coaching?

   Yas,

   Raghava Pandit das

   2 years ago

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8. 

   mathuranatha das

   Dear Raghava Prabhu, very interesting.

   I am right into acquiring useful tools. I have dozens of metal working tools ,dozens woodworking tools,dosens of hand tools,all sorts of mechanical tools several winches,block and tackles , quite a range of jacks , clamps , vices , a whole assortment of trucks, 4x4s,a 20 ton excavator , welders , saw mill,chain saws .Enough tools and enough seva to keep busy for many lives .If we have the right tool ,and Krishna helps us we can do anything .

   So yep tools , skills , coaching I am right into it and Krishna is constantly teaching me new skills and giving so much information .

   Sure bring it on : - social skills , life skills , how to win friends and influence people ,mediation skills , negotiation skills , leadership skills- what ever your've got -- what ever u want to send I,m good for it .

   Radhe Radhe [mathuranatha australia]

   2 years ago

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9. 

   skdas

   Facilitating grassroots enthusiasm in pure bhakti should take precedence over training managers imho.

   Especially in our local situation , where even someone explicitly, publicly and repeatedly recommended by Srila Gurudeva was rejected and insulted by other followers, and in another case, where someone making great sacrifices and efforts to fulfill Srila Gurudeva's desires is also undermined and criticised behind his back, it seems the only way to go forward is small-scale, like 'cells' based on personal inspiration.

   Like seva teams, where everyone just minds their own business and gets on with it to please Srila Gurudeva, leaving others to do their own respective thing. let the actual result be the goal.

   ...

   My questions are

   How does all this extra training in material skills and so on go with the idea of 'staying in your position'?

   It sounds like facilitating ambition / passion and politics to me.

   Why go further than training devotees in Deity worship; suci standards; preparing / serving / honouring prasada; Japa retreats; etc.??

   All the 'Hare Krishna' managers that I remember and respect were basically just good sane responsible people and honest devotees and dedicated. That's all most of us expect. Is there any training for that?

   2 years ago

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10. 

    mathuranatha das

    There are techniques /tools for manipulating matter .Gross matter or subtle matter .

    Peoples and animals minds are subtle matter , wood , steel , earth are gross matter . We manipulate matter anyway , either for our own sence gratification of for Krishna seva .

    If we can get tools to manipulate the minds of people to engage in some kirtan and seva why not?? .Might also help with training bullocks and children and in our dealings with our neighbours and the Government authorities .

    If we abuse the power the techniques give us and manipulate people in a way Kishna doesnt like He will punish us and they are His jivas so He will look after them .

    Some devotees are kindly offering free tools to enhance our seva,could be Krishna orchestrating the situation for the good of all .

    I,ve damaged my arm and back over doing things any way ,learning a few mental and intellectual life skills would be a good break from hard manual labour way.

    Raghava Prabu it doesnt look like the new seva team u mentioned [for coaching in life management skills etc] is on the Seva teams site yet .How can we find out more?

    Radhe Radhe !!

    2 years ago

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11. 

    rags108

    Dandavats,

    The idea to provide training to "managers" is meant to teach people how to become better listeners and motivate people to be the best they can.

    Learning to play the mrdanga or performing nice deity worship if done for the wrong reasons also becomes a "material skill" and feeds only one's ego.

    Srila Gurudeva has expressed that he wants that his devotees should be taken care of and nourished; meeting their human as well as spiritual needs. Think of Radhanath Swami's "Devotee Counseling Program". Highly successful and used as a great preaching tool in India and UK.

    Our idea for this Seva Teams should be seen in this light, and not so much as in "...How to make friends and influence [manipulate] people," etc. Ananta prabhu has conducted several communications workshops with devotees and everyone seems to be very enthusiastic about it, including Srila Gurudeva. For those who are not "into" it, they're free not to attend. It is totally meant for those who would like to receive such coaching.

    Now back to the topic; I would like to facilitate a process for distilling, condensing and executing ideas within our sanga and provide standards and criteria for approving and funding (if required) a project, or if not, how to best manage such projects for the best possible outcome. Think of providing communication tools, collaboration and project management tools, etc. From speaking with many devotees it seems there are plenty of ideas out there but due to a lack of skills and tools, or clear decision making criteria in case funding is required, many such ideas never see the day of light.

    So how to start making a difference. My next step in this Idea Forum is to pull and present resources for effective planning (if you fail to plan you’re planning to fail) a project.

    Soon, Rags

    2 years ago

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12. 

    bhadradd

    Are you maybe moving a little too fast, Raghava Pandit prabhu?

    It seems like only a matter of days since this forum was created, and many devotees do not yet know of it. I have presented one article, and although I have not been as vocal and quick to speak as some, I feel I am only just rolling up my sleeves as far as presenting ideas for sanga/community/society development goes.

    I would like to see the forum continue as it is for at least a few more weeks, for more devotees to join and vote, for more ideas to be presented, and for present ones to further crystalize.

    You touched, in the comment above, on a topic which I am sure is (or is at least a major aspect in) the solution to many of the concerns and problems in creating cohesive sanga and all the departments that entails.

    Why have so many attempts at community and sanga failed? Why are so many devotees so shy of community development, and unenthused to step in its direction?

    I suggest it is because we are not able to deal with each other in a satvic way. We talk about love and respect, but when it comes to putting it into practise in all its levels and forms, in an ongoing way in community and sanga development, we fail, dismally.

    Most of us can only hear what is going on in our own head; we have little or nil ability to hear what our neighbour wants, feels, or says ... especially if we disagree with him/her, or see things a different way.

    Every single one of us has a desire to control. It is inherent in our conditioned nature. When we made our dismal decision to serve maya instead of Krsna, we became equipped with the desire to control and enjoy of our own accord, separate from Krsna. Until we become cent percent pure, that desire to control is still with us. It is stuck to us. It manifests less in some, more in others. Some of us are aware of it; some are not so much aware. Some are aware of it yet fail to work on themselves to curb it.

    If a devotee has ideas about social and community development and is active and vocal about advising, telling, organising, directing and instructing others on where and how they should live, what they should be doing, how they should do things and occupy their time, what they should be aspiring for, what their mood should be, etc, it can be very off-putting to other devotees. It tends to make them run in the other direction.

    Most devotees in the West are never going to gravitate toward a person or an idea if they think in so doing they will be controlled, manipulated, coerced or judged.

    We are mostly unaware of the experience we give others by our company, by our association.

    This being the case, how can sanga ever flourish?

    Every day we chant trnad api sunicena, but our hearts are far from practising it with our brothers and sisters. We observe that others are not practising it, but what about ourself?

    I'm pointing here to the dire need in devotee circles for the type of education and inner growth that the likes of Ananta prabhu can facilitate.

    In this regare you say, 'For those who are not "into" it, they're free not to attend. It is totally meant for those who would like to receive such coaching.'

    But I have observed that it is often the ones who are unable to look at themselves in a deep and honest way, the ones who have strong resistance to getting real with and honest about themselves at a deep level, the ones who are most into organisaton of others or of a project, the ones who see themselves as leaders or reformers, who are the ones who are most "not into" the likes of Ananta prabhu's facilitations. They are often the ones who are most vocal in denouncing these trainings and processes.

    Supersoul tells them, 'You don't want that. You don't want to look deeply at yourself. It would be too painful and exposing for you.' And so the devotee makes the stand: 'That is not needed. All that is needed is kirtana/bhajana.'

    No, that is not all that is needed ... especially in community development. Trnad api sunicena and dadati pratigrhnati are also needed. Gaudiya Vaisnavism has been in the West for coming on fifty years now, and (as far as I know) not one single lasting, harmoniously functioning community has developed yet.

    Please, I beg you, before we start drawing things in and moving to the next step, let's explore this concept thread bare. I believe the likes of what Ananta prabhu and others are facilitating, the education in, the learning to identify, the bringing into focus of, and the standing for satvic principles of speech, thought, attitude and behaviour, is crutial to the successful development of any sanga/community/society.

    The likes of what Ananta prabhu and others are offering to train the devotees in is higly under-rated in our sanga. It is hardly even recognised, yet it is essential to (meaning totally necessary, and also 'the essence of')our development.

    Syamarani didi, Sripad Nemi Maharaja and Sripad Sudadvaita Maharaja have all had some experience of this kind of training, and all advocte it. And Srila Gurudeva has several times expressed his approval and appreciation of it.

    Without these satvic techniques and trainings being widely spread and deeply absorbed in Western Gaudiya sanga, no attempt at community in this day and age will ever get very far. We will light a fire, but then we will pour water on it.

    If every devotee won't look into this — which is totally bhava-anukula — with an inquiring, teachable attitude, then it behooves at least many more of us to do so.

    I did not plan to write a long article here. This is only the tip of the iceberg of what could be presented on merits of this aspect in sanga/community/society development. But due to pressing time, this will do for now.

    Hare Krsna.

    2 years ago

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13. 

    rags108

    Thanks Bhadra didi, dandavat pranams. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.

    Thanks for your valid comments and participation in this forum. All your points are resonating and to be taken into serious consideration. Not sure what you mean by “Are you maybe moving a little too fast,...” in this regard. I was merely informing the participants in this particular topic that in Italy a Seva Team was formed to help address and create a platform for better communication as has been demonstrated by Ananta prabhu and others. The Team consists of Srimati Syamarani didi, Swamis BV Nemi, Ashram and Suddhadvaiti, Bhudhara Prabhu and others.

    While we are developing the core ideas for this “Veda Coaching” Team, we are opening the group to new members that were not present during the meetings in Italy and whom any of its current members think might be interested in taking part in this Seva Team, like yourself.

    I believe this week we will start inviting new members to participate and share their valuable ideas and concerns to help put this idea into action.

    Thanks again and looking forward to hearing more from you.

    Yas,

    Raghava Pandit das

    2 years ago

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14. 

    bhadradd

    Thankyou, Raghava Pandit prabhu. I had a slight misunderstanding there, in one aspect. Thanks for clarifying.

    I am very interested in the "Veda Coaching." Although I may not have anything very evolved to contribute, I will certainly be number one pupil, and if there is need or opportunity for me to have input from where I am, I am keen.

    This type of coaching is needed everywhere, and my particular seva domain is New Zealand. If Guru and Krsna desire for it to be, I am prepared to be a channel for this coaching to filter through to the wonderful devotees here.

    I am totally convinced that, even although there may be fine, well-structured sanga/community/society plans and visions conceived of, and even materialising, they will not be a success longterm, unless the devotees learn satvic dealings, attitudes and ways of communication.

    These things are not automatically present in the Kaliyuga heart. It is our normal manner to operate without them (in other words, in rajas or tamas). Possessing satvic dealings constitutes far more than just being a nice, well-meaning person. Because we do not know how to clearly define satvic dealings, we do not realise they are missing and needed.

    Satvic dealing is the subtle foundation to make any society work happily ... or work at all, because freedom of choice abounds, and devotees are too experienced and evolved these days, to stay in a social situation where they are not happy, fulfilled and blossoming, despite all the prescribed systems for pleasing Guru and Krsna being in place.

    Until next time,

    Aspiring for service to Vaisnavas,

    Bhadra dasi

    2 years ago

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15. 

    mathuranatha das

    Training in mode of goodness dealings .Ok If thats what Krishna and Guru want then Thats what I want . The fact that I,ve never considered it before means I,m really in the mode of ignorance and really need it.In fact I'm so ignorant I havent a clue what it involves or what it really is or where to get the training .

    Googling Vedic Coaching wasnt any help so whats the process in getting trained to be a mode of goodness useful member of Srila Gurudevas Society. Of course I do believe that if I could get it together to chant a lack or so of heartfelt harinama every day and do a good 8-10 houres of hard Guru seva that would also do the trick .But that seems a long way off ,so some "material "techniques to reduce the modes of ignorance and passion would be appreciated .Radhe Radhe!!

    .

    2 years ago

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16. 

    skdas

    I think that we should refrain from calling things 'Vedic' this and 'Vedic' that, at least for the time being.

    Let's make a stand for substance and neglect the form.

    2 years ago

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17. 

    rags108

    Thanks all for your valid comments. Satvic communications I know is a big topic on Srimati Syamarani’s agenda and the Veda Coaching Seva Team is currently researching existing coaching systems that could apply to the issues we’re seeking to address. Living VEDA (UK; Ashram Mj > www.livingveda.org) is already facilitating workshops, kirtan events and retreats and Veda Coaching is also being developed in that spirit. VEDA stands for Vedic Education and Devotional Arts.

    It’s merely a working title at this moment, and any suggestions are most welcome though.

    Yas

    Raghava

    2 years ago

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18. 

    mathuranatha das

    I admit I could communicate a lot more more effectively than I do now , although it is absolutely astounding how Krishna Consciousness does appear to have helped already .I could also understand a lot more clearly and deeply the things that Hari, Guru ,Vaisnavas and jivas are attempting to communicate to me .

    And if I do a communications course with the motive of improving my seva then that mood of wanting to enhance and increase our seva is pleasing to Hari ,Guru , Vaisnavas .

    And whether something pleases Krishna is the is the criterion to decide whether to do something or not .So even though my mind is lazy , proud and has so many other things it prefers to do I will try and get it to do a course .

    Actually a course in mind control would be good .

    Rahde Radhe !!

    2 years ago

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19. 

    skdas

    "Let us not waste our time in managing everything. Everything is correct externally. Just correct your mind. You cannot perfect all things or complete all activities. What is there is sufficient. Rather, you will have to bring more and more love and affection."

    2 years ago

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20. 

    mathuranatha das

    "Let us not waste our time in managing everything. Everything is correct externally. Just correct your mind. You cannot perfect all things or complete all activities. What is there is sufficient. Rather, you will have to bring more and more love and affection."Just wondering who the quote is from how recent and in what context it was spoken , and if it's able to be reconciled with

    quote:-" Yasodanadana dasa: You asked me to set up the Society. Why the Society, Gurudeva?

    Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: If there is no society, everyone will be separated. They will scatter here and there; there will be no control."

    More and more of Srila Gurudevas disciples around Murwillumbah attend Iskcon on a very regular and increasing basis .Where as the attendance at Srila Gurudevas sannyassis programs and festival days like Gurupurnima is becoming less and less and almost dying out as compared to a decade ago .

    Perhaps that quote was from some time ago and now everything is far from correct and thats why Srila Gurudeva is calling for action .

    Radhe Radhe !!

    2 years ago

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21. 

    rags108

    It is interesting to see that even although Gurudeva is clearly indicating that he wants us to organize ourselves, we get hung up about management structures, etc. It is my humble and limited understanding that Gurudeva is not necessarily saying that we should apply (too much) management, but rather inspire a flow of bhakti where like-minded devotees can come together and render service in whatever capacity is natural to them. Genuine seva is not inspired through hands on management and control.

    I do very much appreciate however this healthy discussion. Soon Brajanath prabhu will send out a draft organizational structure to help give devotees an understanding of how we could possible move forward in ways that include everyone and is transparent to all.

    2 years ago

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22. 

    skdas

    I would go so far as to suggest that SEVA TEAMS should be the most important department of our sanga.

    1 year ago

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